From time to time, ACTIVEenergy will repost some of my musings from years past.  Enjoy this conversation between two giants.

A Conversation: Rick Warren and Peter Drucker

I have said that the theme and method of these e-mails will be to continue the “Let’s do lunch” format I used in Finishing Well – letting you, the reader, sit in on conversations with some great people as they make the most of their Life II changes and opportunities.

This time, I’m going to sit silently with you to listen in on a remarkable conversation between two giants. This conversation took place on January 22, 2003 between Rick Warren and Peter Drucker at Peter’s home in Claremont, California. Rick is asking for Peter’s wisdom about issues of growth and succession. Rick’s church, Saddleback (www.saddleback.com), had grown by more than 3,000 people in just 40 days using a strategy called “40 days of purpose.”

Fortunately, Rick taped and transcribed the conversation. Both men have given me permission to share this remarkable moment in time via ACTIVEenergy.net. You will find it useful in the context of any situation of organizational growth and the leadership of change. It is also a superb example of mentoring.

Rick reminded me that the numbers have changed in two years. Have they ever! His Purpose Driven Life and Purpose Driven Church books have now sold more than 23 million copies. Rick’s 12 Easter services drew 45,000 attendees. I’m using the “What is God Doing Now” section this time to show you the Purpose Driven Covenant as an example of Rick’s next initiative and its spirit. Since their conversation covers several topics and since I want to show what God is doing now through Rick, this newsletter is longer than usual. Stick with it. It’s worth it.

At this time, Peter was 93 and Rick was 49. Here’s what they said:

Peter: Rick, you are moving from just being a church to being… I hate to say the word… to being a denomination. How old are you now?

Rick: I’m 49.

Peter: You’re still young yet…. but what it your plan for succession?

Rick: That’s one of the issues I came to talk about! I’ve been thinking about it for about five years.

Peter: Generally, successors have not done well. Some of them have been in our program. The ones who do worst are the ones who try to imitate their predecessors and fall flat on their faces. Others have just lost their spark.

Rick: In one sense, I’ve been preparing for succession since the church began because it has always been my goal, from day one, to work myself out of a job. I really enjoy giving the responsibility away and empowering others. This past year, my plan was put to the test. I took seven months off from preaching and leading the church in order to write The Purpose Driven Life and design the 40 Days of Purpose campaign. But during those seven months, the church actually grew! I think it is because we built the church on a system – a purpose driven process, not my personality. You’ve taught me that charisma is worthless, and can be dangerous. My successor will be the system we’ve built. I think I could drop dead right now and the church wouldn’t miss me at all.

Peter: Well, here is what I’ve seen as your strengths: First, you have revitalized the sermon. You are a very strong preacher. This is different from most conventional churches where the sermon has become just a formality. It doesn’t really stir people hearts and minds, but yours does. Second, you have made sure that a very large proportion of your members are not just attendants but volunteers in serving. This is a great strength. What percentages of your members are serving?

Rick: Almost 50 percent.

Peter: That high?

Rick: Yes, we have about 9,000 lay ministers with about 18,000 attending on the weekends.

Peter: Also, you have a very strong organized bible study group system. Right?

Rick: Yes. We have an extensive small group system. I never wanted the church to be built solely on my preaching gifts, like a giant one-room schoolhouse or a tent revival. So about 10 years ago, I intentionally started sharing the preaching. I recruited a strong teaching team to share the load (we have six services) so that now I only speak about half the time. Each of these guys is very different in personality from me.

Peter: When you are selecting a candidate for the ministry, what are you looking for?

Rick: Are you referring to our lay ministers or staff ministers?

Peter: Both.

Rick: Well, one of our values is what I call “the good enough” principle. A person doesn’t have to be perfect for God to use them. Because we want our church to be a model for other churches, we want average people doing average activities in order to get extraordinary results. Just like how the typical McDonalds is able to succeed while being staffed by high school students. Because the system works, it doesn’t require unusual talent.

Rick: The truth is, there aren’t enough superstar talents in the world to get the job done. Some churches hold up such a standard of excellence that they basically say to volunteers “If you’re not a professional, you don’t need to apply, because we only want the very best.” That creates a congregation of passive spectators. On the other hand, our growth has happened because we hold to the “good enough” principle,” which allows far more people to get involved. We simplify everything and accept less than perfect performance in order to mobilize more people.

Peter: That’s good. But even with that, now your church has become too big for you to pastor by yourself.

Rick: Of course. We depend on the lay ministers to pastor the people. In fact, this past year we actually shrunk our paid staff by 50 people because I noticed that every time we added a staff member, it took away about five jobs that could be done by volunteers. We were headed in the wrong direction (having everything done by professionals), so I stopped that immediately! I want broad-based involvement by the members, not the pastors doing it all. Ironically, in the same year that we reduced our staff by 50 people, our attendance increased!

Peter: What you describe implies having somebody like you in the organization that is the disturbing element. I’m serious. Someone who is always shaking things up. That must be somebody who is free enough from the day to day managing to do this. Usually nobody is ever free enough from day to day duties to have the energy and commitment to be a disturber inside a large organization. I don’t remember how many thousands of members you have now but you have shown that a large congregation can work. But it only works because your church is composed, to a very large extent, of many smaller congregations if you will. These groups come together to renew their commitment on Sundays.

Rick: I don’t want the church to be one big fat cell. I want thousands of cells.

Peter: That works – on one condition. That there is a Rick Warren. Somebody like a Rick Warren who is the energy and the conscience and the example of the movement.

Rick: You know, Peter, I don’t think many people are attracted to a church because of its large size. I’m not. I don’t particularly like those stadium churches. I think people put up with the large size because their personal needs are met by programs, groups, and preaching. Actually the bigger a church becomes the more potential for inconvenience (such as having to park a long distance from the service). The only people who like big church services are pastors! (laughter)